Dear Restoration Friends & Pioneer Descendants:

Please insist that your entire family attend this meeting with you! Please forward to everyone that might want to help the restoration of our pioneer's graves.

Important Date to Attend:

Wednesday, Nov. 19th, 2008,
5:30PM
Community Presbyterian Church
1555 Poli St., San Buenaventura, CA

For a map of where this church is, please click address below: http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=San+Buenaventura&state=CA&address=1555+Poli+St.&cat=community+presbyterian+church

Here is the latest article from the Ventura County Star. Just click on the below address: http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/sep/30/park-project-surprises-venturans/

Here is a surprise announcement in the Ventura County Reporter by the City's Mayor, Christie Weir just this last week:

"Four years ago, Ventura's Parks & Rec Commission took on the challenge represented by Cemetery Memorial Park on Poli Street: Since the City took over the site in 1963, neighbors had come to use the open space as a public park while preservationists have advocated a return to its original sole use as a cemetery. Surveys and workshops with the public between 2005 and the present revealed, overwhelmingly, the community's desire to memorialize the cemetery's history while preserving the site as passive recreation space.

This is a blatant lie. Please read my dear friend Edson Strobridge's thoughts, on the City's survey: http://restorestmarys.org/Comment%20on%20the%20Survey.htm.

The workshop was just as much a farce. Mr. Strobridge is responsible for researching and identifying the 45 Civil War Veteran's buried in desecrated graves at this cemetery: http://restorestmarys.org/Civil%20War%20Vets.html In 2007, the City Council approved the creation of a plan to improve the existing park while integrating recognition of its rich history and honoring the people who are buried there. The newly proposed plan includes refurbished landscaping and repairs to the historic WPA cobblestone retaining wall; it also proposes a Veterans' memorial path and flagpole, a memorial garden and small, brass markers in the grass to represent each of the approximately 3,000 known graves on site.
Full implementation of the proposed plan would cost nearly $4 million and is beyond our means.
Even phased implementation would require fundraising through grants, bonds and/or private donations to begin. Since most grant funding will only pay construction costs - and not design fees - the City has taken the initial steps necessary to become eligible for available funding by designing a plan for improvements to the park. Fiscal responsibility is our utmost priority during these tight times, and we remain committed to the community's vision for the park once funding becomes available.
The proposed plans are currently posted at the park, and are also online at the City's web site: www.cityofventura.net.
The City Council has not approved the plan yet, and we're interested in hearing the community's feedback over the next few months.
We invite the public to hear a presentation and participate in a discussion at 5:30 p.m. on Nov. 19 at Community Presbyterian Church, 1555 Poli St."

Here is my response to the City's $4 million dollar attempt to get themselves out of a horrible situation. Their attempt fails miserably short of what we owe our pioneers, your family deceased. They refuse to acknowledge that this is a cemetery and can not legally be nothing more than a cemetery. Their illegal attempt to try to sell this property as a park to the general public must be refused to the end. The below letter, I believe, will be printed in the VC Reporter this next week:

Re: New Design Plan for the Desecrated Graves of St. Mary's Cemetery

Dear Editor:

The City Council and the City Manager of Ventura has played stupid for just too long.

FIRST - The City FAILS to acknowledge that as long as human remains are in the ground, the land's USE is RESTRICTED SOLELY TO THAT OF A CEMETERY. That is California state law. The City VIOLATED the law in the past and continues to VIOLATE the law today. 'Cemetery Memorial Park' is NOT a PARK. It is a CEMETERY, the land's dedication to cemetery purposes has NEVER been legally removed and CANNOT be legally removed unless the human remains are relocated elsewhere. What part of 'it's a CEMETERY' can't the City quite get??

SECOND - They are planning to spend nearly FOUR MILLION DOLLARS on a property to which the City DOES NOT HOLD RECORD TITLE. Simply put, the City cannot PROVE its ownership. In fact, the record title to portions of the cemetery remain in the Presbyterian Church and the Hebrew Cemetery Association via deeds dating to the 1860s and 1870s. Use of these PUBLIC FUNDS on property owned by RELIGIOUS entities is PROHIBITED by Article 16, Section 5 of the CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION.

THIRD - The City VIOLATED California law when it originally stripped the cemetery of its markers, including those of MILITARY VETERANS. The City continues to argue that its actions were warranted and legal, but they were not. This is especially so when you consider the City holds NO RECORD TITLE to the Presbyterian and Hebrew cemeteries. Even If the City did own those cemeteries, then it has violated Section 960 of the California MILITARY AND VETERANS CODE in relation to the treatment and marking of VETERANS graves.

FOURTH - The City used a public forum for input into the future design of the cemetery and physically wrote down all the participants contact information promising to contact everyone for the next stage of the City sponsored tyranny. Several months go by and then quietly, the City hurriedly, rushes the new design plan before the Parks and Recreation Commission. It is rubber stamped automatically by the P & R Commission without any notification to the previous public forum participates nor does the new design plan include any of the suggested ideas from the general public or from the past public forum, let alone comply with State or Federal cemetery law.

LASTLY - This property, the 7 - acre cemetery is holding the remains of our pioneers and family, a religious burial ground. How religious or pious are those now licking their chops to put their 'New Age' secular interpretation on top of our Dead? Cemetery Law, a traditional Catholic priest, a traditional Presbyterian pastor, an orthodox Hebrew rabbi and a traditional Buddhist monk SHOULD BE the only ones participating.

It HAS and always WILL BE about what the City Council and City Manager want and to HELL with the Resting Places of our Ancestral Heritage, Federal Cemetery Law, State Cemetery Law, the religious and us, San Buenaventurans.

Sincerely,
Steve Schleder
www.restorestmarys.org

It continuously amazes me that they, the City, want to dictate to us what they will do with our pioneer cemetery and what we should accept, when if fact, THEY ARE OUR EMPLOYEES AND WE DICTATE TO THEM WHAT OUR PIONEER CEMETERY IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE... it is not a dog park.

Sincerely,
Steve Schleder

A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."

localthinker edited message on 11/12/2008 01:31 PM

Date Posted: 11/13/2008 12:19 PM

Cause this is important...to the top.. and it's Vet's day

http://images8.fotki.com/v156/photos/2/292835/2005859/MilitarySupport-vi.gif?1107654581

Date Posted: 11/14/2008 01:12 PM

Cemetery Park not dead and buried
Plans for a memorial project have divided residents, but a community meeting on the concept plan is hoped to bridge the gap
By Paul Sisolak 11/13/2008

If the dead could talk, there’d be over 3,000 voices speaking up about what to do with Cemetery Park.

That’s how many people are said to be buried underneath the grassy sprawl of the historic downtown Ventura landmark, the graveyard-turned-dog park whose future identity is causing friction among at least three camps of people: Preservationists, with a long-standing dream of reverting the park back to its original use as a pioneer cemetery; recreationalists who prefer that it stay in its current incarnation as a social meeting spot for dog owners; and officials from the city and a local conservancy, looking to strike a middle ground by turning the parcel into a memorial site.
But while a set of conceptual plans for the park will be unveiled at a Nov. 19 public meeting at the Community Presbyterian Church on Poli Street, it’s doubtful a compromise can be reached to please everyone, according to those on competing sides of the issue.

'There isn’t a middle ground. That’s the problem,' says Steve Schleder, the principal organizer for a total restoration of the former St. Mary’s Cemetery back to its original state.
Crumbling conditions necessitated the removal from St. Mary’s of thousands of aging headstones in the early 1960s, erasing nearly every indicator that the parkland interred thousands of Ventura’s original residents. It became popular as an open space park and, by association, has been unofficially considered such ever since, with the occasional token flat grave marker here and there.

Activists like Schleder believe the new concept plan, a costly, $4 million open space effort envisioning a combination of memorial grave markers, a veterans walk and an ornate memorial wall, isn’t enough to give the dead their due. According to Schleder, the idea only further tarnishes what the park was designed for. On top of that, he notes, the new plan may even violate certain federal and state laws that require cemeteries to be equipped with peripheral fencing, a locked gate and proper visiting hours. Cemetery Park has none of those.

'The city’s attitude with this whole thing is so callous,' he says. 'They don’t look at this as a cemetery; they look at this as a problem. They’ve learned in the past to throw money at problems. This problem won’t go away if you throw $100 million at it. We have to return the dignity and respect, and that’s what the city is refusing.
'We’re talking about the resting place of our pioneers.'

Park enthusiasts say they respect that fact, but favor keeping the land a dog park if only out of pragmatism; $4 million for any project is too costly in these tight economic times, they maintain. Plus, the social bonding between residents and their pets serves well those living in the here and now with all due respect for the dead.

'We’re building a sense of community here,' says Barbara Yontz of Ventura, while at the park late Monday afternoon with her family. 'We meet friends here. To me, that’s what parks are about.' Ginger McKay, who was visiting the park with her dog, is circulating a petition opposing the memorial project. So far, said the Ventura resident, a few hundred signatures have been collected. 'There’re not just dog people signing,' McKay said.
Both women balked at the project’s price tag, suggesting the city forward the money toward arts or education, and leave the dog owners alone.

Amidst all this, Stephen Schafer, president of the San Buenaventura Conservancy, backs the memorial park project as a good balance between what the park was before, and what it is now. 'I’m of the mind set that it’s a cemetery until you remove everybody,' he says. 'It’s not a park per se. It’s just been a de facto park. I think it’s as disrespectful to use it as a park as it is to play Frisbee down at (Ventura cemetery) Ivy Lawn.' Schafer continued, 'What needs to be established is the direction of this open space is not going to move towards playgrounds and jungle gyms. Every park evolves. Every park gets remodeled and landscaped.' For one, Schafer noted, there’s been a community disconnect over one very important detail: the project’s proposed cost. The city employed a Santa Monica-based design firm to draft up the concept, drawing $25,000 from the arts budget. But to think the $4 million remodel will come at the sole expense of taxpayers is false.

According to Mike Montoya, the city’s deputy director of public works and parks, if the city council green lights the project, the majority of money to pay for the project would come through grant funding. Schafer hopes the Nov. 19 meeting will serve to clarify such public misunderstandings and bring people onto the same page.

'There are a whole bunch of desperate viewpoints,' he says. 'I don’t think they’re 100 percent aware of the big picture that’s going on below them because time has erased that. I think that’s the disconnect. The thing is, how can we best get this together?'
Schafer is more confident a middle ground of public opinion on Cemetery Park can be reached, though it will be difficult. 'The only way to make some middle ground is to have a lot of dialogue,' Schafer says. 'The best thing we can hope for is something that benefits the community that doesn’t make people on both sides terribly unhappy.'

'There are details of the plan not accessible to one side or the other,' added Montoya, 'but they’re not insurmountable issues.' Schleder doesn’t convince easy and hopes to bring to the table his own plan for cemetery restoration, along the lines of volunteer work. It would cost the city and its residents next to nothing, he claims, for beautifying and landscaping the park, and replacing headstones that currently sit in storage. 'There are a lot of people interested in restoring this cemetery, and they’ll do whatever it takes,' he says.
He continued, 'This isn’t about us; it’s about the dead. This isn’t a feel-good, new age kind of thing. This is somebody’s grave, point blank, and that’s that.'

The Cemetery Park community meeting will be held 5:30 p.m. on Nov. 19 at the Community Presbyterian Church, 1555 Poli St., Ventura. Proposed plans can be viewed online at cityofventura.net, or in person at the Cemetery Park fence, between Main and Poli streets.

ExTO Senior Member From: Ashland, Oregon Registered: Sep 2008 Posts: 305	Date Posted: 11/14/2008 01:13 PM           Poor Loco, still trying to get some attention? Since nobody else is here, I'll keep you company. Want some popcorn? "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935
iseepeeple Formal Fig Flinger From: Where there is air...you will find me there Registered: May 2004 Posts: 3917	Date Posted: 11/14/2008 01:17 PM Kath...I would really like it if you would go over to JoeMack's section 8 post and explain to me the point he is trying to make in his first post. I would be curious to know how you interpret it...and pass the popcorn. And good morning BTW. Giddyup and Getdown! iseepeeple edited message on 11/14/2008 01:18 PM
ExTO Senior Member From: Ashland, Oregon Registered: Sep 2008 Posts: 305	Date Posted: 11/14/2008 01:18 PM I read it Isee and it sounded like a rant. I'll have another look. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/14/2008 11:21 PM Too deep for you? I get it....'cakes and circuses' for you. Let them eat cake, huh? You must be so proud. So much for progressive democrats helping to care about or correct descrecrated veteran's cemetery. More shameful shallow thinking or open non-thinking. A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.." localthinker edited message on 11/14/2008 11:44 PM
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/17/2008 02:24 AM   Cemetery Park: a part of Ventura's forgotten history By Michael Sullivan 11/13/2008 While cemeteries across the country have come under scrutiny due to the spook factor, there is no denying the fact that cemeteries are an important part of a city’s historical culture. Whether you are visiting the Jimi Hendrix memorial in Greenwood Memorial Park in Renton, Wash., searching for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, Va., or just meandering through Confederate Graves in Oakland Cemetery in Atlanta, Ga., all cemeteries have one thing in common: They provide a tangible historical account of their respective cities. Because of today’s fast-moving and ever-growing society, cemeteries have often garnered a bad reputation — almost taboo to have the dead be in close proximity to the living. While we celebrate Halloween and Dia de los Muertos (Day of the Dead), integrating the lives of the dead with those of the living is reserved specifically for those holidays and usually nothing else, with cemeteries often relegated to the outskirts of cities. But the city of Ventura has an opportunity to mesh the two to create a unique asset that residents and visitors alike could respect and come to appreciate: the Cemetery Memorial Park improvement project, located on the corner of Main Street and Aliso Lane. For many people who drive by or go for a walk and enjoy the sensational panoramic views at the park located just minutes from the heart of downtown, restoring the historical ambience of what used to be gives Ventura and its residents a sense of place. Those who frequent Cemetery Park have established their own sense of place by utilizing the destination as a communal dog park, but no one can deny the fact that the dead buried there deserve our respect. With more and more people opting for cremation and land prices skyrocketing, generations of families that have passed away in the last several decades and into the future will be left with little to remember. To create a memorial for those who died in this city eons ago, including planting copper grave markers with names and lifespans, constructing a veterans’ walk and repairing the historic rock wall is the least we can do to keep our history a part of our future. While many maintain the price of the improvement project, slated at $4 million, is a hefty price tag during this economic crunch, Anne Hallock, spokeswoman for the city of Ventura, said there are no plans to implement the project without funding, of which there is none available at this time. Once the economy stabilizes, the city would have the opportunity to implement the plan in phases, spreading the financial burden over a longer period of time. The city would also apply for state and county grants, alleviating some, if not possibly all, of the taxpayers’ cost. In order to be eligible for grant funding, the city needed to hire consultants to draw up a tentative plan, $25,000, in which the planning process for the improvement project began four years ago. The current plan can be adjusted, depending on what residents feel is appropriate. The cemetery will never to be able to regain its full glory as it was decades ago with thousands of century-old marble headstones and granite grave markers, which were discarded into the Hall Canyon riverbed many moons ago. Nonetheless, the city of Ventura is heading in the right direction. We encourage our readers to look at the plans and read about the history of the park. Our cemeteries are an essential part of our historical culture, and we support the plans to judiciously restore what was lost so long ago, to respect those who have passed and to provide knowledge about Ventura’s past for those who are living. E-mail Michael Sullivan at michael@vcreporter.com For more information about the tentative plan, go to www.cityofventura.net/public_works/parks/plans. Scroll down to Cemetery Memorial Park Improvements and click on the slide show. Also, attend the Cemetery Park meeting Nov. 19, at 5:30 p.m. at the Community Presbyterian Church, 1555 Poli St. A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."
Verdict Member From: Simi Valley Registered: Nov 2008 Posts: 13	Date Posted: 11/17/2008 01:08 PM     Wow. ExTo. That's kinda meanspirited. Since you don't live locally, why don't you save all that for the Oregonians. Or have you exhausted that resource? Might try Idaho or Washington. Keep spreading that sparkle of light and love just everywhere! That said, the TOPIC is Saint Mary's, and that is why I CAME to this thread. St. Mary's was once a cemetary. There are graves of County founders and military war heroes under piles of dog crap. Although I'm certain that speaks to the manner in which unhappily transplanted and likely transgendered Oregonians respect the deceased and those who fought for all of us, here in Ventura County, that's just not the case. There are several problems. First, the cemetary is very centrally located amongst Victorian homes of some value. The homeowners don't want the park returned to it's former purpose. That's really not up to them. The cemetary was never suppose to be a dog park. Second, the ancestors want the cemetary returned to it's former glory as a cemetary. Although this is the right and correct thing to do, it's not likely to happen just like that. Compromise for now and for the future would have to be reached because....Third, the city has no money. My suggestion would be to forbid the dog pooping on the cemetary grounds and to work with the ancestors to provide for the recognition and respect of their buried relatives. The pooping issue, while already a law that's totally ignored, would need to be enforced if only in this particular place. However, it would help to ease the pain of going to pay respect to a relative and having to shovel dog excrement off the grave to do so. At the very least that would help the ancestors to become more likely to reach an agreement with the city, cuz if this goes to court the city is going to lose and lose big. Kind of like exTO's posts from what I've seen. You have to shovel off the crap.
ExTO Senior Member From: Ashland, Oregon Registered: Sep 2008 Posts: 305	Date Posted: 11/18/2008 02:47 AM    So, Verdict, given your passionate defense of Loco, may I assume you will be supporting him by attending the meeting? For being such a proud Californian, inured to the likes of us ex-residents, you might want to try and drum up a little interest in this among the locals. It is indeed a worthy cause for consternation. Walk the walk. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935 ExTO edited message on 11/18/2008 02:49 AM
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/18/2008 01:55 PM    AND ALSO TALK TO VENTURA CITY OFFICIALS DIRECTLY: Ventura City Council FACT and CONTACTS The Ventura City Council meets at 6:00 pm each Monday for the first four Mondays each month. The City Council meets the first week in August and will not reconvene until the first Monday after Labor Day weekend. Meetings are held in Council Chambers on the second floor of City Hall, 501 Poli Street. All meetings are open to the public. Mayor- Christy Weir, cweir@ci.ventura.ca.us Deputy Mayor- Bill Fulton, bfulton@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmember- Neal Andrews, nandrews@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmember- Brian Brennan, bbrennan@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmember- James L. Monahan, jmonahan@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmember- Carl E. Morehouse, cmorehouse@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmember- Ed Summers, council@ci.ventura.ca.us Councilmembers may be contacted via telephone at: City Hall: (805) 654-7827 or by email: council@ci.ventura.ca.us City residents interested in serving on a City of San Buenaventura Board, Commission, or Committee may obtain an application form in the City Clerk's Office, 501 Poli Street - Room 204, Ventura, California, 93002-0099, by calling the City Clerk's Office at (805) 658-4787. AND... Parks & Recreation Commission FACT and CONTACTS The mission of the Parks and Recreation Commission is to stimulate interest, recommend and promote public parks and recreation programs, facilities and events. The mission includes reviewing and recommending on those portions of the long range capital improvement program pertaining to the development of parks and facilities, beaches, golf courses, playing fields and recreation centers. Parks and Recreation Commissioners Brooke Ashworth, Chair Bill Camarillo, Vice Chair Christopher L. Lopez, Commissioner Suz Montgomery, Commissioner Sharon Troll, Commissioner Ed Wehan, Commissioner James White, Commissioner Parks and Recreation Commission Meetings 3rd Wednesday @ 5:30 p.m. Anacapa Conference Room January 16, 2008 February 20, 2008 March 19, 2008 April 16, 2008 May 21, 2008 June 18, 2008 July 16, 2008 August 20, 2008 September 17, 2008 October 15, 2008 November 19, 2008 December 17, 2008 CONTACT US Here in Ventura our Public Works Department is responsible for our City Parks. Public Works Department- City of Ventura Parks Division (805) 652-4550 PS...EXedTO, nice try. You don't really care about this issue. It's only an obvious MORE trollish stalking behavior from you. Keep digging that hole (with these nonsense posts) that you sit at the bottom of alone. Your assinine posting comments like this, make you look like this... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/photog1z/funny%20stuff%209/drunkasleep2.jpg A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.." localthinker edited message on 11/18/2008 01:57 PM
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/19/2008 01:55 PM    Important Date to Attend: WALKING THE WALK SINCE 2004.... Wednesday, Nov. 19th, 2008, 5:30PM Community Presbyterian Church 1555 Poli St., San Buenaventura, CA For a map of where this church is, please click address below: http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=San+Buenaventura&state=CA&address=1555+Poli+St.&cat=community+presbyterian+church A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."
Verdict Member From: Simi Valley Registered: Nov 2008 Posts: 13	Date Posted: 11/19/2008 03:13 PM    Oh, I am involved in St. Marys fight. Protested a couple of times on their behalf. So, when it comes to walking the walk, I've walked. As if it were any of your business......
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/24/2008 01:35 PM    These thoughts came to my attention: "Ask not what your country can do for you... But what YOU can do for your country!" REMEMBER that? Other cities have PAID FOR the removal of graves/internments to another cemetery property when the cities wanted to own and reuse the cemetery land. San Francisco did it years ago or you have an unethical 'Poltergeist' situation officially acomplished and perpetuated by a CITY GOVERNMENT for 4 decades. Govt is supposed to live, enforce and abiede by laws. How come Ventura city doesn't on this? What other laws can Ventura citizens ignore? Maybe dogs leash and curbing laws at local parks. The City is going out of their way to support dog feces on the pioneer graves of San Buenaventura. They are doing everything in their power to allow dogs to $hit on the graves. The City are doing nothing to stop it. The City refuse to enforce the leash law, The City refuse to abide by State law to fence the cemetery to keep the dogs out. The City demands that it stay a toilet for dogs by THREE council people there; including mayor. There is no right for dog owners to use public land for this. It is against public health and sanitation on many levels. It is always hard to watch St Mary's cemetery tomb owners & pioneer relatives expalining their position with the dead being $hit on, and the next person speaking talks about how it's their right to bring their dog to the "PARK" to $hit on the dead that we love as relatives and are the historic makers of Ventura, our home. BUT; today's selfish, self-centered, immediate gratification, who-gives-a-damn for the dead, new age, i-need-to-get-mine, dog owners and neighborhood narrow-minded propertied home owners are playing a dispicable game against what is plainly correct and right thing to do. This city's mistake will not go away until the cemetery is restored or interments are respectfully removed by the city.+++ A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.." localthinker edited message on 11/24/2008 01:38 PM
ExTO Senior Member From: Ashland, Oregon Registered: Sep 2008 Posts: 305	Date Posted: 11/25/2008 05:39 PM   Local, I am sorry to hear that about the vet's cemetery. Seriously. Maybe you can shame the city government by starting a movement, or something, to get volunteers to go in and clean up the place. It could be done as a school community service project or a Memorial Day thing, or something. I do think it's a shame. I was making wisecracks about no one responding because it was YOU posting it while on a cranky streak. Apologies. This is indeed a worthy cause and I wish you luck with it. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 11/26/2008 02:56 PM   This is a honorable cause, if it wasn't I would be involved, just like illegal alien rip-off. I am glad you recognize you were wrong. ps...'cranky streak', you suffer from that quite a bit it seems here. You eating 'crow' is a very disagreeable task, right? A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."
Verdict Member From: Simi Valley Registered: Nov 2008 Posts: 13	Date Posted: 11/26/2008 06:35 PM    LT~ I think she's apologizing which would mandate that you accept with grace. Putcher sword away! Verdict
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 12/02/2008 01:42 PM   Maybe you are right...in the spirit of the holiday season; I will assume she was being sincere. Thanks for the apology. Tell you friends about the injustice of St Mary's Cemetery descecration. A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 12/02/2008 03:36 PM    Re: Cemetery Memorial Park Dear Mayor and Honorable Councilmembers: I am the California State Coordinator for Saving Graves, an information and referral Internet website for the preservation and protection of historic cemeteries. As such, I am acutely aware of the problems that plague our many thousands of pre-and post-gold rush cemeteries. I am also aware that, of those who are responsible for damage wrought on these hallowed places, the names and capacities of public officials are ranked at the top of the list. I have been following the matter of your "Cemetery Memorial Park" since late 2002. I have been interviewed by reporters from the local area papers and the Los Angeles Times regarding the legal status of the cemetery. Since first being contacted about this issue, I have requested from various inquirers that they obtain for me the official City documents that marked the City's initial conversion of the cemetery to a park. None of these folks have been able to provide me with any valid documentation to evidence that the City of Ventura acted with proper statutory authority when it determined to convert these cemeteries to the present “Cemetery Memorial Park.” It is my opinion that the present Council has been led to believe that what the City did with these cemeteries beginning in the early 1960s was done legally and that, therefore, your present body bears no responsibility to correct the wrongs committed by your predecessors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I recently reviewed the Ventura County 2004-2005 Grand Jury Report findings and conclusions that resulted from the its investigation of a citizen complaint. From the information provided to the Grand Jury by the City, I am rather amazed that the present City Attorney did not detect that the City obviously failed to comply with State law when it moved to convert the cemeteries to a public park. For instance, it appears that the City claimed title to the City’s public cemetery through operation of law. Public cemeteries to which the public acquired legal title through operation of the former Political Code section 3105 (current Health and Safety Code section 8126) have always been prohibited from being used for any other purpose than as a public cemetery. There is nothing in the language of this law that would ever be legally interpreted to imply a public cemetery could also be used as a public park, memorial or otherwise. (See Attachment A for the text of these laws.) Even if the City had not acquired the public cemetery through operation of the former Political Code section 3105, but rather acquired it through purchase or otherwise, former Political Code section 3108, in effect at the same time, also contained a prohibition against the use of city public cemeteries for other than burial purposes. Section 3108 is now present Health and Safety Code section 8127 enacted in 1939. (See Attachment A for the text of these laws.) Furthermore, lands used as a cemetery is dedicated solely to cemetery purposes as long as there are human remains left buried in the ground. At one point it appears that the City did consider the removal and relocation of remains under authority of Health and Safety Code section 7600. This method of converting the cemetery to a park likely proved to be cost prohibitive, so the City did not act to do so. Because the City did not choose to avail itself of section 7600, the land that comprises the old City public cemetery may legally only be used as a public cemetery. Because it is a public cemetery there is a strict prohibition against its use for any other purpose, including as a park, memorial or otherwise. Similarly, when the City acquired the lands of St. Mary’s Cemetery, it agreed to keep the land for the purpose intended – that of a cemetery. Had the City arranged to remove and relocate the graves from St. Mary’s, it would have violated the conditions of the deed with the Catholic Archdiocese. Instead, it seems, the City fathers decided to concoct this combined cemetery and park scheme so that it could both abide by the agreed upon terms imposed in the Catholic deed and get its park at the same time. From the Grand Jury Report, I also note that there seems to be a question as to whether the City holds record title to portions of the Cemetery Memorial Park. More specifically, the Grand Jury was concerned the City has no title to the Protestant or Presbyterian Cemetery and the Hebrew Cemetery. The Grand Jury report identified that the City maintains it acquired ownership of these cemeteries purportedly as a result of the fact that: 1) the City Cemetery was shown on maps dated 1887 and 1889; 2) two City ordinances (one for regulating and protecting the PUBLIC cemetery and the other creating a cemetery fund); and 3) section 8126 of the Health and Safety Code. Section 8126 (and the former Political Code section 3105) applies ONLY to “public cemeteries or graveyards” that were or are in use by the general public. It did NOT apply to cemeteries owned by private individuals, religious organizations or fraternal or benevolent societies. Therefore, the City’s citation that it acquired title to these cemeteries through this law, is unsupported in law. The fact that the “City Cemetery” was shown on an 1887 and 1889 official city map has no bearing whatever on the title to these two religiously own properties. The law does not provide that the title to privately owned religious cemeteries will vest in the public if they are not shown as separate parcels from the larger City Cemetery on an official city map. Therefore, the City’s reliance on the existence of what is shown on these maps is not relevant to establishing any legal title to these two cemeteries. Lastly, the City’s contention that the two ordinances past by it somehow inured title in the public to these two cemeteries is wholly ridiculous. The City enacted Ordinance No. 41 in 1889 for the purpose of regulating and protecting the City Cemetery. Ordinance No. 86 passed by the City in 1896 merely established a cemetery fund for its use in the administration of the City Cemetery. There is no basis in law to all the City to claim that the passage of these two ordinances in some way vested title to the Protestant and Hebrew cemeteries in the public. The Grand Jury report relates that both the First Presbyterian Church and the Hebrew Cemetery Association acquired their cemeteries in 1870 and 1876, respectively, through Grant deeds. Therefore, it would be impossible for the City to claim an ownership interest in either of them through operation of section 8126 or the predecessor section 3105 because the cemeteries were religiously owned and operated cemeteries. Former Political Code section 3105, predecessor to the present section 8126, provided that the “…title to lands used as a public cemetery or graveyard…” would vest in the public through operation of this law, only if the public’s use of the public cemetery met certain prescriptive conditions. Among those conditions was that a public cemetery that was “situate near to any city, town or village” had to be used by the “inhabitants of the city, town or village” (read PUBLIC), “continuously, without interruption” for five or more years after January 1, 1873. The language of section 3105 was clear that it was only intended to effect a title in the public as a result of the public’s use of a public cemetery or graveyard. This law had absolutely no effect on the title to religious, fraternal association or benevolent society cemeteries. This law was strictly written to provide the public with a title to the public cemeteries that had been used, and continued to be used, by the people of the various communities of the State. [For case law decisions on the effect of these laws, see WANA THE BEAR v. COMMUNITY CONSTRUCTION, INC. (1982) and STOCKTON v. WEBER (1893). See also Attorney General Opinion #98-503, regarding Gold Rush cemeteries, dated August 1998.] California law prohibits the use of cemetery land that has been, either formally or impliedly, dedicated to cemetery purposes for any other purpose than as a cemetery. Only if all the human remains have been removed from the land and the dedication formally and lawfully removed, may the land be used for any other purpose. The City’s use of the various cemeteries mentioned in the Grand Jury Report, including the City Cemetery, for any purpose than as cemeteries was simply not authorized by law until all the remains have been removed from the land. The City’s use of them today as Cemetery Memorial Park remains an unlawful use as prohibited by law. The little information that I've located describing how the City managed to convert the cemeteries to a “memorial park,” points to the possible use of Health and Safety Code sections 8825 through 8829 (Pioneer Memorial Park). I have found no documentary evidence, however, that the City actually performed the statutory requirements of this law. Such non-performance constitutes non-compliance with the law. (See Attachment B for the text of the above codes.) Additionally, the Pioneer Memorial Park statutes apply ONLY to cemeteries abandoned by others and NOT to city owned public cemeteries. When the City acquired the title to the St. Mary's Catholic Cemetery prior to converting the cemetery to a park, that cemetery was not thereafter considered abandoned as defined or required by sections 8825-8829. This is because the City had assumed ownership of it and, as such, it became a publicly owned cemetery. Therefore, the conversion of St. Mary’s would also not have been authorized by law because it was a public cemetery owned by the City. Finally, if the City had complied with the legal requirements of sections 8825-8829, it would have completed the legal process by filing to quiet the title to the Protestant/Presbyterian Cemetery and Jewish Cemetery. When the Grand Jury examined this matter it evidently was not provided sufficient evidence of the City’s alleged title to these cemeteries or the report would not have questioned the validity of the City's ownership claim. A Quiet Title Decree would have given the City title to the cemeteries so the City could lawfully have fulfilled the requirements of sections 8825-8829. As an aside, sections 8825 through 8829 did NOT intend that all of the gravestones, ornamentation and monuments should be removed from the cemeteries that were established as legal Pioneer Memorial Parks. It only authorized the removal of any tombstone, coping piece or monument that posed a threat to the public health, safety and welfare. Sections 8825-8829 of the Health and Safety Code was NOT intended to allow cities and counties to turn cemeteries into parks, but to aid in the preservation of old cemeteries that had deteriorated due to inattention by the once legal owners. The City’s method of “acquiring” the Protestant/Presbyterian Cemetery and Jewish Cemetery each constitutes an unlawful taking of property in violation of both the Federal and State Constitutions. By unlawfully taking these religiously owned cemeteries, the City also deprived these entities of their right to the free religious practice. Irrespective of the fact that either of these cemeteries may have appeared to be "left behind" by their respective owners, each organization held a validly obtained deed to their lands. Those interred within these cemeteries and their descendant families had a right to believe that these hallowed grounds would not be allowed to be unduly molested, desecrated or obliterated. In their absentee ownership, the City should have taken all due action or measures to ensure their protection. Instead, the City became the perpetrator of the ultimate crime. In short, the City stole their cemeteries. Now the City is faced with a new development plan for the “dual-use” cemetery and park it unlawfully created some forty years ago. It cannot continue to ignore that there is no legal basis for the City to have converted the public cemetery to a park or to have unlawfully taken the Protestant and Hebrew cemeteries. The question now is, do you wish to continue the masquerade that was set in motion so long ago when the City acted without even a smidgen of statutory authority? Or will you choose to uphold and protect the laws of this State and take all appropriate corrective measures to halt this illegal use of the cemeteries? If I am correct in my analysis of this situation, the City had no statutory authority to convert any of these cemeteries to a park, dual-use or otherwise, in the 1960s. Because it failed to use what actual authority it could have utilized over certain portions of the property, the City is in violation of, and out of compliance with, the California Health and Safety Code pertaining to public cemeteries. If I am incorrect as to the method the City used to convert the cemeteries to the present park, please forward to me a copy of the City Council’s Resolution passed in the 1960s, that declared the abandonment of the cemeteries pursuant to sections 8825-8829 of the Health and Safety Code. If the City did pass such a Resolution, please advise if it passed individual resolutions for each of the four separate cemeteries it ultimately declared abandoned, or did one Resolution include them all? Please send me, also, a copy of the published notice that appeared in the local area newspaper for the required four weeks notice pursuant to Government Code section 6064, and a copy of the City Council minutes from the 1960s meeting of the public hearing that was held as part of the City’s Declaration of Abandonment pursuant to Health and Safety Code section 8825-8829. California Saving Graves supports the restoration of these cemeteries to their original and only lawful use. We urge you to ensure the City ceases to violate the law and that its actions reflect its intent to comply with all applicable laws pertaining to them. Most importantly, please ensure that the unlawful use of them as a public park be immediately ceased. Respectfully, SUE SILVER, State Coordinator California Saving Graves 31955 Rocking Horse Rd. Escondido, CA 92026 (760) 723-3609 Professional Affliations: Past President, El Dorado County Pioneer Cemeteries Commission Trustee, Chung Wah Chinese Cemetery, Folsom, CA Advisor, Sacramento County Cemetery Advisory Commission Advisor, Senate Local Government Committee, Public Cemetery District Law Reform (2002-2003) Advisor, Commission for the Preservation of Pioneer Jewish Cemeteries and Landmarks of the West, Berkeley, CA Sexton (1997-2002), El Dorado Cemetery (est. 1849) Past Advisor, Amador County Cemetery Board A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."
localthinker Expert Member Registered: Jun 2008 Posts: 268	Date Posted: 12/11/2008 02:15 PM   Citizen cable TV show, Kalifornia Kaleidoscope show called "Restore St. Mary's" Video Broadcast Times in City of San Buenaventura. If the dead could talk, there’d be over 3,000 voices speaking up about what to do with Cemetery Park. That’s how many people are buried underneath the grassy sprawl of the historic downtown Ventura park landmark, the graveyard-turned-dog park whose future identity is causing friction among at least three camps of people: 1. Preservationists, with a long-standing dream of reverting the park back to its original use as a pioneer cemetery; 2. Recreationalists who prefer that it stay in its current incarnation as a social meeting spot for dog owners; 3. Officials from the city and a local conservancy, looking to strike a middle ground by turning the parcel into a memorial site. 12-08-08, 8:00 PM Monday 12-09-08 11 pm Tuesday 12-11=08 5 pm Thursday 12-12-08, 1:00PM Friday http://www.capstv.org/ProgSched/CAPS08_12_13-.pdf Check the link above for new broadcaxt times each week. Kalifornia Kaleidoscope's Restore St Mary's Cemetery show we did will get some great prime times. Programer picks broadcast times. It will only show twice a week. This St Mary's topic show will probably air until the end of January 2009. http://www.restorestmarys.org A troll once wrote here after a dramaqueen post, "Hi there, you guys. Its been awhile since I've been here.."